12/21/2014 12:42:36 PM

It's been a while, so I suppose an update is in order. I had a rough relationship and it took me a few years to realize what the the problem was, that it wasn't my problem, and that I couldn't fix it. Oh well, love makes you do stupid things sometimes, and the best you can do is try to learn from your mistakes. I quickly got back into a relationship with a nice kinky girl, but the previously relationship had just worn me down too much for me to shoulder that kind of responsibility again. What can I say, I take my responsibilities seriously. So the nice kinky girl and I are friends now, but only friends. Not even friends with benefits, if you can imagine that. I have wandered away from the local scene, and it's nice having a friend that knows at least most of my secrets. I've tried a couple vanilla relationships since then, and it was a surprisingly pleasant change of pace. It seems after having kinky relationships for so long that vanilla relationships seem almost like a vacation to me. But now for the first time in a while I think if the right kinky girl came along I would, well, you know. Use your imagination. What can I say, I have a stressful job right now, and catharsis can be a beautiful thing.

9/11/2008 6:28:32 PM

I get variations on the same question a fair amount about advice for taking the leap from online to real life. My thoughts on that are this: Like everybody else I started out online, but once I had my first real life taste I never looked back. That was over 12 years ago, and I don't understand what just online folks get out of it. The main thing to remember is that the goal is making fantasy real, and you can get really close (especially with the right person) but ultimately a BDSM relationship is also at least partly a vanilla relationship. It's even a fairly conventional relationship a good chunk of the time, especially in public and around friends, family, and kids. But if you can both agree to mostly ignore awkward reality intruding on your pleasant fantasy then the fantasy can seem pretty real most of the time. With trust, honesty, and commitment you can even bend reality so that it's not worth trying to tell the difference. So think, ask questions, and learn. Know your submission has value and you should get some measure of happiness in return for it. Then find somebody you can trust and other than safety commit completely to your first real life experience. Odds are it isn't going to be a great experience, but you aren't going to get to where you want to go by doing anything else.

8/9/2008 7:20:52 AM

I hate asshole, wannabe dominants that screw it up for the rest of us in general, and convince new folks that BDSM is bullshit in particular. So please read my journal and take away what you will, but for new submissives especially in my opinion the most important piece of advice I can give you is this: Submission has great value, so don't give it to anybody you don't trust and do not give it away for free.

1/5/2008 11:17:08 AM

Is it Abuse or D/s? Copyright © 2006 by MissFish This is a topic I've thought long and hard about, and almost didn't write.  But, after a lot of thought and consideration, here I am.  What makes me qualified to write it you might ask?  Several reasons, the two prevalent ones being that I grew up watching my mother in several abusive relationships thoughout my life.  And the second, is that I was in an abusive M/s relationship myself.   I will attempt to address several issues with this article.   1) warning signs to look for   2) what is an abusive dominant   3) the cycle of abuse   4) how to get away from an abusive person So lets get right to the heart of the matter.  What do you look for before you get so involved that you need to escape.  Some warning signs of an abuser::  1. Jealous or  possessive tenancies.  2. Isolating you from friends and family.  3. Severe mood swings.  4. Unwillingness to tell you what you've done wrong.  5. Making you feel like nothing, destroying your self     esteem and self confidence.  6. Questioning your every move.  7. Making you feel as if everything is always your     doing, even his mood. Remember, someone who's dangerous may exhibit some, all or none of these signs.  As I've learned, it's not something one can easily see.  But these were just things I observed about my dominant.  And things that should have caused red flags for me.  But, love can blind you sometimes, and I've learned alot from all of this, about myself and other things as well. Ask for references.  Ask for driver's licence numbers, and have the police run a background check.  If the dominant isn't involved in any group in his area, find out why.  Learn everything you can.  And anyone not willing to answer ANY question you have, isn't worth your time, or more importantly your life.   Identifying what the difference is between an abusive dominant, and someone who is just a severe sadist can sometimes be difficult. One of the reasons being there are so many different ways to live this lifestyle, and  many are into what is considered edge play.  What one person considers abuse, may be what I consider normal play.  Having said all that, and throwing in there that this is all just my opinion, based on my experience and observations I've made.   In my opinion, if you can answer yes to any of these questions, you could be in abusive situation.  Are you often afraid of your dominant?  Are you often made to feel as if you can do nothing right?  After a scene, do you feel ashamed or abandoned?  Do you have to defend your "style" of play to others too often?  Are you constantly waiting to see what your dominants mood is before you react to anything? Have I felt these things in a normal D/s relationship?  Certainly.  But never all at the same time.  I would consider each of these questions carefully if you aren't sure if your dominant is abusive, and if three or more apply to you, seriously think about talking with someone who has either been in an abusive situation themselves, or a counselor who specializes in abusive situations.   There is defiantly a cycle or pattern to abusive relationships.  This could be imperative in identifying a potentially bad situation if you notice this cycle happening in your relationship.  Said dominant commits abusive offence.  Said dominant then pleads for the submissive to forgive, saying it will never happen again, it was a mistake.  Submissive forgives behavior.  Everything is wonderful until abuse happens again, and the cycle repeats.   This is the normal pattern in a abusive situation, but our lifestyle, because of the nature of the relationship, it can happen quite differently.  For instance, it may never happen that the dominant admits to having done anything wrong, and instead says "I just enjoy a harder level of play than you are used to".  And in this case, the submissive is made to feel as if they are to blame, and feels worse rather than better about what has happened.  NO dominant has the right to push past a submissives limits unless it has been discussed as a soft limit open to exploration.  Never, for any reason at all, does a dominant have the right to ignore a safe word call.   As for getting away.  That's harder to answer.  I stayed with my dominant for two years before i finally found the courage to leave.  And that's mostly what it takes.  Move, change everything you can from email accounts to phone numbers.  Alert the police in your area even if they say he's not a threat, get it on record anyway.  Above anything else, try not to get into the situation in the first place. I truly hope this article helps someone, for that is my only intent in writing it.  When I left my dominant, i felt everything from shame, to relief at finally getting away.  And there are still parts of that relationship that I'm still learning to deal with and move past.  The important thing to note however, is that i did leave, i got away.  And honestly, it was probably just in time.

1/5/2008 11:12:13 AM

Safety 101 Copyright © 1995 TheScreamer Note: Originally for AOL, but still good advice. Class #1 - Online D/s Even in our little AOL world, there is danger. For all new Doms and subs alike, here are a few standard rules to make your transition into online D/s a safer, happier one. 1. You do not have to answer every email, message, or IM (Instant Message) that you get. Should you get one that is vulgar, rude or harassing, simply use the cancel button, or send it to TOS (Terms of Service). Even if you are a new sub and the IM is from an "online Dominant", no one has to take abuse. 2. Do some reading! The fact that you're reading this is a good start! But there are many good books about D/s on the market. Doing your homework can really pay off. 3. When you make your first few forays into the chat rooms, don't announce in the open room who you are and what you're looking for. That is a magnet for anyone out there looking for quick and easy cybersex. If you're seriously looking for friends, contacts and possible partners, be discreet. Read profiles. IM respectfully to people who interest you. Make polite conversation in the room. Show respect, and you'll earn it in kind. 4. There are 3 main "Le Chateau" rooms on the AOL Member Room List. These are "Le Chateau", "Le Chateau Dungeon" and "Beginners Dungeon". Each of these rooms has a different personality. Try them all, and see which one fits you best. Note: Currently the "Le Chateau" rooms appear irregularly; but there are many other D/s rooms on AOL and other chat services -- all can vary greatly from hour to hour depending what's being discussed and who's in them. 5. Never give your real name, phone number, credit card information or any other personal information to anyone you've just begun to talk to online. Get to know someone over time before revealing anything of importance!! First names are sufficient in the beginning. 6. When approached by a potential partner, ask questions!! Get to know the person as well as online will allow, and then very discreetly ask around for references about that person. Please heed any warnings you may receive about an individual, but be sure you ask for more than one opinion. If you cannot find anyone online who will vouch for this potential partner either way, please proceed very slowly. Remember that online is no different than real life. Make them earn your trust. 7. Always be aware that this form of communication harbors unsavory characters, just as any other. And also be aware that people may not always be who they appear, or claim to be. If you proceed at a cautious rate, you'll save yourself some possible heartache down the road. 8. Phone calls: If someone wishes to speak with you, and you aren't entirely trusting of them yet, offer to call them instead of giving your number out. You can disable any possible caller-ID function they have by punching in the disable code (check your phone book information pages, or call your phone company.) Keep your first conversation brief and friendly. If you still harbor doubts at the end of this, continue to call them. Never go against your instincts -- they are your most valuable resource. If they demand your number and you've respectfully and repeatedly told them no, perhaps it's time to close that particular door. 9. Even if you live close to someone you meet online, it's not a good idea to move into meeting them too quickly. Take your time in getting to know them, speak several times on the phone, and if you do agree to meet, set it up at a public place, and take a friend along. A serious potential partner won't mind. Class #2 - First Time Meetings There are many ways to meet potential D/s partners. AOL and classified ads are only two of these ways. First time meetings always require a little extra security and safety. Here are some simple rules for those awkward first encounters. 1. Always set the meeting up well in advance, so that you have time to arrange a sufficient safety net. (This goes for Doms and subs alike.) If you are traveling, make reservations at a motel, but do NOT let the person you're meeting know where you'll be staying. 2. Arrange to meet for the first time during the daylight hours in a public place, such as a mall or a restaurant. Always park your car a distance away, so that if the meeting goes badly, you cannot be followed away. Another good idea is to take a cab to this first meeting. 3. Do not plan to play during your initial meeting. You should have plenty to discuss, without sex or D/s play entering into the equation. 4. Think about taking along a friend. A serious potential partner won't feel intimidated. 5. Safe calls: There are many ideas out there about how safe calls should be done, but I'll only offer you my humble opinion, and what has worked for me in the past. Let two friends, preferably local to where you'll be meeting, know your complete schedule. Give them the full name of the person you'll be meeting, their phone number and a brief physical description. You can even go so far as to give them the make, model and plate number of the car your date will be driving. Make sure that your friends have an accurate description of you as well, and the phone number of the local police. Arrange to call these two friends immediately after you've met your date. Give them a keyword beforehand, that you can say if you need to get away from your date -- for example, you could say that "everything is great" if you need help, or that "everything is wonderful" if you're okay. Your safe calls should arrange to come get you, or give you some sort of "out" if you use your keyword. If you'll be spending more than a few hours with your date, it's a good idea to call your safe calls every few hours, at least at first. 6. Be honest with your date. If you feel, after this first meeting, that this person is not someone you want to be involved with, be honest and up-front about that. It's not necessarily a good idea to do this at your first meeting. Go home, sleep on it. And then arrange to speak to this person the next day. Remember, your instincts are your most valuable resource. 7. Have a good time. Be yourself. But most importantly, be SAFE and be HONEST -- with your date, and with yourself. Class #3 - First Scene Safety It's always a good idea to get to know someone very well before committing yourself to play time. It's also a good idea to think long and hard about what you expect, and then lay that out for the other person clearly beforehand. It's also a good idea to list out your limits (yes, Doms have limits, too!!) And exchange them well in advance of your first scene. 1. Safe calls: See Item 5 above. If you plan to play at your new partner's home, make sure your safe call has the address, the phone number and a clear map and directions to the home. If you plan to play at your home, do NOT turn off your phone, and make sure you have the number of the ambulance, local police and a contact posted by each phone, in case of any emergency. Secure any valuables before your partner arrives. If you plan to play at a motel or a third party's home, make sure your safe call knows exactly where you'll be. If in a motel, make sure they have the room number, and the name the room is registered under. It's also a good idea to keep your keys and purse or wallet by the door, so you can grab them quickly if need be. 2. It's a good idea to keep your first scene light. I do not recommend bondage, gags or extreme pain for your first scene with a new partner. There are plenty of other activities you can use to get to know each other's likes and dislikes. Besides, if it works out, you'll want to save something for later. 3. Safewords: You should choose and discuss safewords and/or actions well in advance of your first meeting. My recommendations are something very simple, such as "yellow" for slow down, and "red" for stop. Never play around with these words -- they are your protection, and your safety net, and should only be used when you mean them. 4. Safe sex: I don't think anyone needs to be reminded about this, but I'll throw it in anyway. Both parties should possess condoms, in case one forgets. It only takes a few seconds to slip on a condom. It takes a long and painful time to die of AIDS. 5. If, at any point, either party is feeling uncomfortable, STOP!!!!! Dress. Talk. And then talk some more. It takes a lot of trust to have a meaningful D/s relationship. Take the time to build that foundation. Class #4 - Emotional Safety No, pain is not all physical. Sometimes, it's in your head and your heart as well, and sometimes, those scars are the hardest to heal. Here are some tips to lessen your chances of getting them in the first place. 1. Be honest. With yourself. With prospective partners. Never be ashamed to admit you don't know something, or to ask questions. If you're looking for 24/7, don't tell someone you only want to play. If you're looking for love and romance, be up-front about it. If you are dishonest about what you want, it's not only you who could get hurt in the long run. 2. Never reveal too much about your personal life to anyone online. There are too many people who'll use your heartaches and problems for hot IM gossip. 3. If something doesn't feel right, it probably isn't. Your instincts, once again, are your greatest gift and resource. Use them, and listen to them. 4. Heed warnings. If you're told by several people that a prospective partner could be trouble, LISTEN. Take into account that it's someone else's opinion of someone you're getting to know, but always listen, and openly ask your partner about what you hear. Ultimately, it's up to you to decide if you believe everything you hear, but always hear what someone is trying to tell you, and always, check it out. 5. If a prospective partner asks you not to ask anyone else online about them, ask yourself why. Then ask them why. And if you can't come up with any satisfactory answers, either walk away, or proceed with EXTREME caution. 6. If a prospective partner is hesitant with personal information after you've already given yours, then take it as a warning. FIND OUT WHY. 7. Don't get dragged into online gossip. It may be fun for awhile, but eventually it will only come back to haunt you. There are people online who have nothing better to do. Don't become one of them. 8. Think for yourself. Trust yourself. Be honest with yourself. And above all, TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF.

1/5/2008 11:00:26 AM

Safe Calls (Author Unknown) Note: These suggestions may seem to be bordering on paranoia, but it doesn't cost anything to be cautious. Don't take chances when your mental, physical and emotional health could be at risk. Do what's right for you, but consider these or similar suggestions very seriously before agreeing to meet someone for BDSM activity for the first time. Any Dom/me or sub who is reputable and trustworthy should have no problems with these or similar procedures, and if they do, perhaps that should be a warning signal that they are not what they appear to be. The following information should be given to the person(s) receiving your safe calls:     * Your full name     * Your home address and phone number     * Make, model, color, and license plate number       of your car if you are driving yourself, or     * Detailed information (flight numbers and times,       rental car information, etc.) otherwise ALL the information you have on person you are meeting, including:     * Their full name and screenname(s) or logon ID(s)     * Their address and phone number(s)     * Their age, description, any and all information       you have on the person you are meeting.     * Pass on to your safe call person(s):     * Where you are meeting     * The name of place you are meeting     * The address of the meeting place, including room       number (if applicable) and phone number (if you       do not have it ahead of time, give it during first       phone call)     * When you are meeting - time and date     * The phone number for the local police in the town you are meeting Be sure to have agreed and understood codewords for your safe call, one indicating that everything is ok, and one indicating that you need help.     * The first phone call should be made within 15       minutes of the established meeting time.     * The second phone call should be made within 30       minutes after the first.     * The third phone call should be made within 2       hours after that or before leaving the place of the       meeting, whichever comes first.     * The fourth phone call should be made within 30       minutes of leaving the meeting.     * If the meeting lasts longer than 3 hours, phone       calls should be made no less than every 2 hours       apart until you part company... then proceed       with the departing call and the last call.

1/5/2008 10:55:05 AM

Common Mistakes New People Make (Author unknown) The number one mistake I see made by new to D/s is thinking there is a right and a wrong way to go about playing. While there are some safety rules that should be followed, the only people who make the rules are the ones involved in the scene or relationship. If anyone else tells you that you are doing this wrong, tell them to mind their own business. Another common mistake is rushing into things. I know that after years and years of suppressing this desire it is very hard to take it slow when you finally find out you aren't the only one that gets turned on by bondage. But rushing to dominate or submit to another without taking the time to get to know some skills, and each other, is a recipe for pain... that is the bad kind, not the good. When you first get started, take the time to read the literature, join a local organization, and get to know the person you will be playing with. A mistake I often see new subs make is submitting to anyone and everyone who calls themselves a dominant. Just because someone sticks "Master", "Mistress", "Dom" or "Domme" in their screenname doesn't mean you have to call them "sir" or "ma'am" or submit to their demands. For the most part, a reputable, experienced dominant knows this and will not demand unearned respect. New dominants are sometimes guilty of this. If someone hasn't earned your respect, why would you act like they have? Another mistake inexperienced subs often make is in setting limits. Some make too many limits, and this will sometimes frustrate or scare off the dominant. Much more common is a new sub setting too few limits. They feel they will not be desirable or "sub" enough if they have limits. Take some time to think about what truly squicks you... what you do not under any circumstances want to experience at present, and make this act a limit. If a potential Dom/me won't agree to a certain limit, walk away. Of course, your limits will change as you become more experienced. What you won't submit to this year, you may crave the next. Something else I have seen is the "Dom/me is always right" syndrome. The joke is there are two rules in D/s: 1. The Dom/me is always right, 2. If the Dom/me is wrong, refer to Rule #1. That's what it is, too... just a joke. Dom/mes are human and are sometimes wrong. It isn't a sin against the D/s gods to respectfully suggest to your Dom/me that s/he may be wrong... especially if it involves a safety issue. Just because you are a sub doesn't mean you check your brain at the door. If you are the dominant and make a mistake, don't be afraid to admit it and apologize. It won't make you any less "domly". Finally, many newbies think that the Dom/me's pleasure is the only thing that matters. Sure, as a sub it is your job to please your Dom/me, but it should please you as a sub, also. We play these games to make everyone happy. While there may be times you do something to please your Dom/me that you don't enjoy, if you find yourself doing this consistently you are probably with the wrong partner.

1/4/2008 8:46:28 PM

Sub vs Slave:  The never ending debate. Copyright © 2006 by MissFish Well, at least it seems to be.  Enter any chat room online, and ask the question, what’s the difference between submissive and slave and you’ll see heads explode within moments.  Recently I was asked this by a dominant.  Asked to define it in way that he understood.  For him, it was more of a reference to one’s style of play.  Liking to be caged, humiliated, being 24/7, etc.  That was the way in which he defined it for himself.  And if you asked ten people what they thought the answer was, you would get twelve different definitions I’m sure.  Having said that, this article is my explanation, more of why I define myself as a slave rather than submissive, than anything else. In the beginning, I would say it was the kind of training that I went through at my start of all of this.  It was very formal, very etiquette and service oriented, more so than about sex.  And in fact I never had sex with my trainer, even thought I spent six months with him in his home.  That’s not to say I wasn’t taught to be pleasing in that way, just that it wasn’t the focus of my training.   Through that training, I found a peaceful, more tranquil me.  Which really wasn’t me at all, and for a long time, I fought it.  Fought to the degree of becoming a Domme and owning a slave myself.  I have actually found this to be very common among slaves, that they resist the true nature of themselves.  Either because they feel it’s wrong because of their upbringing, or they are shameful of it.  For myself, I just wasn’t ready to give up that much control of my life.   Seeing things now, I can laugh and wonder what the hell was I thinking, owning a slave when I was one myself?  Not that I wasn’t a good Mistress.  I was, but I think in part because I did the things I wanted done to me.  And I finally did realize that, and set things straight.  Laughs, I’m rambling aren’t I, and not really answering the question at all. Okay, so here’s my conclusion, what I have figured out.  The only real, tangible difference between a submissive and a slave is their mindset.  The motivation for submitting.  That’s it.  Nothing more substantial than that.  It’s not about not having limits or safe words, about the style or intensity of play that you engage in.  For me, the motivation is serving.  The only thing I truly need from a dominant, is to be allowed to serve, in whatever capacity it is that pleases them.  Yes, there are things that I want and desire beyond that, but not need.  For me, being a slave is just naturally who I am. So if you are looking for the one answer, the black and white definition of the difference, I’m sorry, you came to the wrong place.  Because the truth is, there isn’t one answer.  There is each submissive and each slaves answer to why they individually choose to be one or the other.  And I think the same could be said of why one is dominant or a sadist, or a masochist.  I for one choose to define myself as both a slave and a masochist, simply because I can be one without the other.   Well, I know that very enlightening for all of you, as much as it was to me when I was posed the question.  But just maybe, someone reading this will be less likely to engage in the head exploding conversation the next time this question comes up in chat.

1/2/2008 5:25:56 PM

I Am Not An Asshole Dominant Copyright © 2007 by MstrFlcnr (By Lord Khan, edited by MstrFlcnr) I have finally gotten my fill of asshole dominants. I have been around a while and when I started out the goal was to find your better half. Now I look around at the competition and what I see are an uncomfortable number of gentlemen that troll the online waters looking for baby subby seals to club over the head. So I have decided to put together a little list of traits that might tell you if somebody you know is an asshole dominant. I'm not saying I'm perfect. I'm not even saying that I don't suffer from one or two of the following issues. What I am saying is the better the following describes your favorite dominant, the less I think they ought to be your favorite dominant. Remember people, the whole point to this exercise is for BOTH parties to get their needs fulfilled as much as possible. Asshole Dominant Traits * Abusive * Cowardly * Impulsive * Dishonest * Dependent * Unprincipled * Disrespectful * Untrustworthy * Undisciplined * Self absorbed * Lacks confidence * Has poor self image * Financially insecure Asshole Dominant Initial Contact Tactics * Unwilling to meet in public. * Attempts domination immediately. * Unwilling to facilitate safe calls. * Unwilling to have chaperon present. * Demands complete personal information. * Provides inadequate personal information. * Lacks or is unwilling to provide references. Asshole Dominant General Tactics * Renegotiating during a scene. * Avoids experienced submissives. * Questions submissive's dedication. * Refuses to agree to use safe words. * Insists all scenes must include sex. * Avoids RL BDSM community groups. * Undermines submissive's self esteem. * Praises submissive for ordinary acts. * Vague and/or inadequate negotiations. * Exaggerates background and/or history. * Blames submissives for errors and problems. * Refuses to honor safe words after agreeing to. * Isolates submissive to prevent second opinions. * Uses all inclusive negotiations (anything not mentioned is OK). * Claims to be a "real" dominant and finds most others too genial.

1/2/2008 4:26:37 PM

Why Aftercare Copyright © 2006 by MstrFlcnr Aftercare should be the last part of the scene, not just a little cuddling after you have emptied your toybag. Your submissive has surrendered control to you and that is never more important to keep in mind than during a scene. Normally a submissive is, at least on some level, capable of letting you know when there might be a problem. But during a scene, especially a very good scene, one of the many objectives of what I consider a competent Dominant is to bend reality as close as possible into a mutually desirable fantasy. Of course that is the goal in most kinky relationships, but it is during the scene that the desire and drive to do that is greatest. And it is also the most likely time when your submissive will not notice that there might be a problem, much less want or be able to let you know. During aftercare is your first chance to focus all of your attention on the submissive and try and determine what kind of effect it had and start planning accordingly. So you have spent some time planning the scene, and if you do not know your submissive as well as you might, talking it over. You hopefully had some goals in mind before you started such as what limits you wanted to push, or whether or not you wanted to generally reward or punish your submissive, or perhaps you were just feeling a bit selfish and sadistic and wanted to push the scene a bit further than you might otherwise. At any rate, you have taken your submissive on a wild ride and they are at the very least not thinking very clearly at the moment. After a really good scene, as far as your submissive is concerned, the lights are on but nobody is home. If you intended to provide an enjoyable experience then at the very least your submissive is in a happy place and rightfully would like to stay there as long as possible. If you intended to not provide an enjoyable experience then if you own your submissive then you are damn well responsible for him or her, and should you have to punish your submissive then they should be learning a lesson and not be feeling abandoned. The transition from active scene to aftercare should be quick and smooth. Every second you fumble with your toys or untying knots is another second that your submissive might be wondering what is going on and might start slipping back into reality. So immediately after the active scene ends, you need to start talking in a slow, comforting voice while touching bare skin to bare skin as much as possible. The point here is not to get a reaction, the point here is to delay reality as much as possible. It's good to have a chair or mat, and a blanket handy, and if you can't lift your submissive have a kind soul ready to help. I like to hold my girl on my lap, softly and firmly with one arm while stroking here hair and occasionally telling her in soft voice how well she did. But it really doesn't matter as long as you are gentle and patient. If you do your aftercare right, your submissive will leave reality sometime early in the scene and not come back until they have been in your arms for several minutes. And what better feeling for a Dominant than to know that you have the power to alter reality, if only for a few people for a few minutes, and as soon as it is over having them wishing to do it again?